Thursday, February 08, 2007

Jenn's Corner #7

February 8, 2007





Jenn's Corner #7



Did everyone see the new Glossary? If you didn't then you should definitely check it out here! It has all of the terms we have used on the page up until close to the end of January. Keep checking back for additional terms (we will be adding at least monthly with terms that we have used on the site) and also for a Japanese Romaji cross-reference! That way we can all understand the same terms and use the terms we are most comfortable with!

I want to talk about something that is important in the world of Mahjong; Gambling. Betting money on games has a very distinct image and in many places, the image is not good. In Japan, Gambling is mostly illegal. I say mostly because thanks to loopholes gamblers can still get their fix in Pachinko Parlors, at Horse Races, Bike Races, Boat Races, through Lottery and yes, in Mahjong Parlors as well. It kind of makes me wonder what part of Gambling, exactly, is illegal. There are, of course, no [advertised] casinos that give you the chance to lose money at Roulette, Black Jack, Poker or Baccarat (although it is possible to fill your cravings for these fixed games at underground casinos secretly). For legitimate gambling in those areas, everyone flocks to Las Vegas or Macau.

But lately, Mahjong is changing from its smoke-filled, beer-drenched, high-stakes "bad-ass" image to one of healthy competition, attracting a quite different but equally welcome crowd. To be perfectly honest, I am all for both images. Although I don’t like smoke in the poorly filtered hole-in-wall Mahjong Parlors that I frequent, I do appreciate that such a complicated game that requires a great deal of intelligence can have a “cool” image. The Japan Professional Mahjong League has announced that all JPML competitions will be non-smoking starting with the first competition in April. How exciting! Now maybe my contact lenses will hold up for all of the games. And in professional tournaments, while we are not betting money like in cash games, there are almost always cash prize purses, tournaments that allow amateurs reaching about 120,000 yen for first place (close to $10,000 U.S.). And you will rarely find a rate-free Mahjong Parlor, though they do exist.

Most Professional players got that way by playing for money. It is a popular belief among many of the old hands and their disciples that Mahjong, like Poker, uses money to keep score, and a more popular one that if something is not at stake, then not only does the gambling aspect increase and skill level decrease, but there is no hope of improving your game. At times I am torn… I do believe that people can improve without betting money, but I also believe that if all Mahjong games you play are “just for fun” then that is what you are playing the game for. That is perfectly fine. Mahjong is a game and it should be fun. There is no reason that everyone must participate in “gambling” in order to have fun at the Mahjong table. But, I also believe that it is hard to find people playing “for real” even if there is no risk of losing something. There are the golden few, but most people change the way they play when money is involved. In serious games and to make sure your opponents are serious, many people believe that it is better to use cash to count, even if it is a small amount.

Anyone who plays online poker will understand. When you play Poker for play money, the best hand usually wins the game, making it a game of luck and true gambling. When you play for real money, the most skillful player wins in the long run, using bets and tricks to let their opponents fold hands, proving that Poker is a skill game and not an actual gamble. In Mahjong, it is easy to come to the conclusion that the fastest hand will win in no-rate games, increasing the luck factor, since less people will fold hands. If the risk, however, is greater, people will tend to fold more, giving bigger hands and the players who wield them the edge.

It is a touchy subject for some and since most public Mahjong in the world outside of Japan right now has little to no cash involved; it is difficult to get everyone on the same side.

I will leave you all with this image though. All of the World Champions that you have heard of that came from Japan, us Americans that live in the center of the Reach Mahjong world here in Tokyo (including Garthe, I and a few of our buddies over here), and most professional players, rarely even practice without a rate attached and it has proved strength in the World beyond our doors.

Is Takeo Kojima (founder of the JPML and nicknamed Mr. Mahjong during his peak) right? Is it impossible to become an A-Class player without betting money? I’m not sure if that is true, but I can say from experience that finding worthy opponents already at that level is quite difficult. Maybe that, like the smoking rules in Mahjong Parlors, will soon change as well. For now, all of you anti-gamblers don't worry! With the English Ron2 coming and the possibility of more tournaments in the world to come, there are plenty of opportunities to gain and keep your Mahjong skills.



In other news, last month Garthe and I participated in Saikouisen's (another pro group in Japan) Pair Match. Aren't we cute?

45 comments:

Anonymous said...

Yes, not only cute, but also happy and healthy!

- "I also believe that if all Mahjong games you play are “just for fun” then that is what you are playing the game for."

There are many rewards people go after when playing, besides money:

- To impress their mate
- To entertain themselves
- For the challenge
- Personal accomplishment
- Because the journey is more enjoyable than the destination
- ...

And - like once a Chess player said in a 70's film documenting the rivalry between the USA and the USSR - to see the deception of defeat in the eyes of your opponent. In other word, pride.

Besides, the prize don't have to be money. The competition between players by itself is rewarding. You should see our games in the Winter tournament. They are as passionate as any game where big money is involved.

If you need money to make the game "real", than I think you haven't met true players. Gamblers and competitors are to complete different breads. One dreams of becoming rich, the other of being the best. This is not to say one cannot be both. External vs internal rewards.

Do you really think the Olympics, the Super Bowl, any World Championship, the US National Spelling Bee, the Mondial are all about the money? How about football fans who fight in stadiums?

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Good Morning Walter!

I agree with you that the prize does not necessarily have to be money.

But I think that one difference might also be that there are many strong Mahjong players that do not believe that betting money on the mahjong game and gambling are the same thing. Since the strongest players where Garthe and I are believe that it is a skill game and not a luck game, in the long run the strongest player will win and the money is not a means of gambling as much as it is a way to keep all players 'honest' in the sense that if something is at stake players will play their hardest.

I am sure that it is partially cultural and also the Mahjong environment that I was trained in.
I agree with you that it is the mentality that decides the competitiveness. The truth is that in Japan, it is tough to find high-skilled players willing to play for nothing, but many play in tournaments with no monetary prizes (although there are usually some sort of goods available to winners).

When I first started and when Garthe and I teach new players, we very rarely bet money on games.

When I first started, we would play for the cost of renting the table. 1st place would play for free, 4th would pay 50%, 3rd would pay 30%, 2nd would pay the rest. Hardly high stakes but just enough to keep everyone focused.

I do think that if you have the right group then it is definitely possible to have a competitive set. Also tournaments. There definitely does not need to be a big prize purse for a competitive tournament.

And I hope that someday I can play in your winter tourney!

JFL said...

Heya Jenn!

The link to the glossary in your article doesn't work for me. But I found it through the main website at

http://reachmahjong.com/en/rules/glossary.html

It's well done and I learned a few more terms (Yakuhai, Ryanmen machi) though I don't think we'll get to use them. Are you sure North is called "Kita"? I always thought it was "Pei".

As far as money in Mahjong goes. I think it's different than Poker. Because money is not there just to make sure everyone plays their best. You actually use your money while playing. The size of your stack is crucial. Also, each time it's your turn to speak you have to handle money. The money component (chips) is part of the game. From what I've seen so far in Mahjong, money is a only a way to calculate points. The only time you handle money is for Riichi and after a hand. It's true that someone with a lead can kidna "bully" the rest of the table but not to the extent of poker. So, I guess that in Mahjong the "money management" is more subtle and indirect.

However, I agree with you and Walter that when something is "on the line", the game is more intense. Since we started the tournament, I truly believe the skill level of everyone sky-rocketed.

Hope to see you soon at our tables!

chafor said...

Jenn in our tournement. That could be very interesting. Even if that mean getting one place.

Anonymous said...

- "I am sure that it is partially cultural and also the Mahjong environment that I was trained in."

Yes, I think you found it. I agree 100% with you. The use of money, and it's perceived value in competitiveness, has to do with one's culture and a lot with one's circle of Mahjong partners.

In a previous life, I was involved, from far, in an elite amateur sport. What I learn is with money comes media coverage. But, besides that, the level of commitment of amateur athletes is at par, if not often superior than in professional (paid) sports.

I cannot say for other parts of the World, but here, in North America, there is a lot of confusion between competitiveness and aggressiveness; skill and salary; amateur vs professional. It's easy to think a violent overpaid athletes are more skilled and competitive.

Also, there is a casino in Montreal. Each time I went, I saw a lot of money at stake. I never saw competitiveness. Only anxious players, loosing their composure.

- "The truth is that in Japan, it is tough to find high-skilled players willing to play for nothing[...]"

In other words, good players want to be paid.

As with any logical statement, it's easy to think mistakenly since A leads to B, than B leads necessarily to A.

- "Are you sure North is called "Kita"? I always thought it was "Pei"."

I think you are right. The traditional Chinese names are used (Ton, Nan, Sha, Pei) instead of Higashi, Minami, Nishi and Kita, at least for the names of the rounds (tonba, nanba, ...).

Great glossary!

Anonymous said...

Jean-Francois,

You're absolutely right! In normal Japanese, North is "Kita", but in Mahjong they use the Japanized Chinese pronounciation of "Pei"!

I'm so excited you found this because, after I wrote the Glossary once, I sent it to Gemma for proof-reading. After that I sent it to Garthe and in addition to re-proof-reading it, he also added all of the pronounciations of the Japanese terms. I didn't proof-read those afterwards and just trusted Garthe's addition... So, as you can see this is all Garthe's fault! hehe
Thanks for the note, I will fix it today. If you see anything else, let me know. We will have the next installment of vocabulary up in a couple of weeks and hopefully have a cross-reference soon for those that are used to using Japanese pronounciations.

Walter,

I'm not sure that they want to be paid necessarily as perhaps it might be habit. Many of them cannot imagine a game without a rate attached.

Often people play at a rate that is just enough to keep things interesting, but not enough to put anybody out. The cheapest rate at parlors right now is about 30 yen to 1000 points, meaning that if you go bankrupt in the game (or "bottom-out") you will have to pay about $15 US. Since each game takes about an hour, this is more like paying for entertainment than gambling.

Also, growing up with a money-counter in a casino and a card-dealer, I have never been afraid of or had an unfavorable perception of gambling. I was always taught how to use my money in casinos/casino-style games smartly, like budgeting. That may have a bit to do with my opinions as well.

But, I do love Mahjong so much that I, personally, don't find necessity in attaching a rate in order to practice or have fun (^.^)

ASDF JKL; said...

Walter, I have to agree with you on the rewarding reasons for what people go after when playing mahjong.

I have very little money to gamble with in the first place, so I derive my pleasure from mahjong through winning valuable Mangan+ hands. When I am able to play online Ron2 or TonpuuSou (another Jap Mj server), I gain pleasure without gambling through the game itself.

For me, my main aim is to NOT be 4th place at the end of the match. I will be satisfied if I am 1st, 2nd or 3rd. I assume to you (Jenn and Garthe), this is very low expectations, but I am an "Amajanshi" for now so yeah...
Because I feel a sense of shame/guilt/embarrassment if I become last place in points.

My other aim which I may be satisfied with is if I am "Uki" (floating) before and/or after final scoring calculations. So if you start off with 25000 points, I'll be happy if I finish with anything above that. I will definitely be ecstatic with 30000 points when it's "Hanchan Shuuryou" (Hanchan Finished).

Anonymous said...

John,

Don't get me wrong! With Ron2 and Tonpuusou, something is definitely at stake! People pay for Ron2 and they get status for winning. That is definitely something worth winning for. Tonpuusou, also, rewards winning with status and special privileges.
Like I said, while I have been taught that money is necessary for Mahjong, I do not necessarily believe that is true.

Also, Garthe and I get plenty of 4th places! Especially being the newest Pro's around, playing with other people in the JPML is like an embarrassment-fest sometimes... hehe.

But Garthe did awesome in Champion's League this time around! He made it to the finals, so let's root for him!!

Anonymous said...

- "But Garthe did awesome in Champion's League this time around! He made it to the finals, so let's root for him!!"

Wow! Where can we follow his progression?

ASDF JKL; said...

I second Walter. And I wish Garthe good luck,

Isshou kenmei ganbatte kudasai! (does that make sense?)

Anonymous said...

Hi everybody!
[b]2walter:[/b]
[i]Gamblers and competitors are to complete different breads. One dreams of becoming rich, the other of being the best.[/i]
Well, it's the matter of argue, but i think true gambling is not only about the money and becoming rich. I think the nature of gambling is senseless loss: to bet something valuable, important, for just nothing. To delegate the decision about it to something you can't control. And knowing the height of the stake you put all your skill, controlling the strain of losing.
It's something you can't find in any competition. In competition, you don't lose anything (title, prize) because you don't have it yet.
Sorry for my bad english, i'm russian :)

Anonymous said...

- "Sorry for my bad english, i'm russian :)"

Hi Stvyp!

Don't worry about your English. It's 10000000 times better than our Russian.

Is Маджонг (hehe, I can cut and paste) popular in Russia?

And, do you know Vitaly Novikov, the statistician who made interesting calculations about Mahjong?

Anonymous said...

hi Walter!
Is Маджонг (hehe, I can cut and paste) popular in Russia?

Neigher popular nor even known :)
When you say "Mahjong", most of people say "Oh! Mahjong! I know! It's where tiles in pile must be discarded by pairs!" - surely, it's about "taipei" or "mahjong solitaire".
I don't know what is about mahjong in regions close to China and Japan, but here, in central region, i know of only couple of groups who play mahjong.
In Saint Petersbourg, there is a club "Gambler", where people play different games including mahjong. They play by rules close to Chinese Classical and Chinese Official.
Second is the club "Deadhand" in Moscow, which have just started activity. They play by CO and CC rules either.
Other people (a few) play with friends at home.
I play with friends by Riichi Rules. Riichi - my first and only love (don't want to say i hate Chinese rules, but it is so:)).

Well, there's too little people to play with. By Riichi - especially.

And, do you know Vitaly Novikov, the statistician who made interesting calculations about Mahjong?
No, i'd be grateful if you provided me with links or info.
I'm trying to find any information about tactics, strategy, statistics, gameplay and so on - due to lack of information in Russia and even in the english-speaking part of internet.

Anonymous said...

Hello Stvyp,

In Canada, it's the same. Most people think Mahjong is a computer tile-matching. It's hard to find Riichi Mahjong players, except in Montreal, where I founded a club.

The "Deadhand" club. Sounds like a Goth Punk Rock group. (^_^)

You'll find some of the papers written by Vitaly Novikov at http://www.mahjong-co.narod.ru/ Being pure mathematical work, it's not very useful to practice Riichi Mahjong or learn new strategies. You'll learn a lot more by reading this blog and by playing online, for instance on RON2 ( http://www.ron2.jp/ ), which will be soon translated in English.

Anonymous said...

First, my apologies to everyone and Jenn for blundering with "北/kita/pei". It's what I get for writing while proofreading, playing mahjong and checking the stock market: I forget what language I'm faking.

Next, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I do want to throw in my 2 yen on the whole gambling discussion. Where to begin...

1st, playing for money versus playing for pride/status/whatever. One might argue that pro sports and Mahjong are two very different things but I'd argue that in fact they are quite similar so I'll stay with the comparison. I also used to compete in an (elite?) amateur sport, Ultimate Frisbee. No no no, not with the dogs. And not disc golf either. It's kind of like rugby or American Football but with a frisbee; there are endzones and you're trying to catch the disc in them for a point but you can't run with the disc so there's no tackling. Anyway, there's generally no money involved although some teams do manage to get a little sponsorship when they've won a championship. It's not an olympic sport (yet?) so everyone's just playing for pride but the level of competition is indeed quite high. My teams in Japan and America both hired personal trainers to help at practice and my teammates and I trained hard both there and on our own at home or at the gym. While I believe that the level of competition was indeed high, I've never doubted that money in the sport would make it an entirely different game, one that I very likely would not be able to participate in. Money simply attracts a different class of athlete, for example, the class that can run 40 yards in 4.6 seconds (American Pro Football). I'd say the fastest on my teams (number 1 in America and Japan, btw) were maybe just under 5.0. And it's also unfair to say it's a shame that they're only doing it for the money. If they weren't paid, they would have to work somewhere else and wouldn't have the time to devote to becoming the fastest/smartest/best players in their sport. And we as spectators wouldn't be rewarded with the level of play we get to watch. (The amount pro athletes get paid is a whole nuther discussion. I'll leave that for a different time)

Now, there's the whole thing about gambling. Of course, it's the classic gambler's justification that what HE does is not gambling but taking calculated risks in a game he knows he can win if he plays well. So you have to draw a line between types of gamblers, the ones who are just playing games of pure chance (roulette, craps, bingo, etc; and yes, I know there are ways players can improve their odds in these games making them games of skill but, you know, in general), and the ones who play games which involve players' skill (Poker, Mahjong, Blackjack to an extent). In the end, it must be everyone's individual decision regarding what reward they want for playing their game and then choosing their game and opponents accordingly. In my experience, the level of mahjong play at a parlor where there is no betting involved is much much lower than parlors where even small amounts are wagered. And not suprisingly, the level of play definitely tends to increase with the amounts being wagered.

So, happy gaming everyone. And Happy Valentine's Day too!!

Anonymous said...

Oop, as long winded as I am, I forgot something: following Jenn's and my progress in tournaments. The easy link to see the current standings in Champion's league is:

http://www.ma-jan.or.jp/title_fight/champions-league.php

My name in Japanese is ガース which you can find currently in second. This is at the end of the selection round. The Japanese I would imagine is hard for most readers here so we'll be posting an update after the finals next month.

The general link to our association's webpage is:

http://www.ma-jan.or.jp/

But that's even more Japanese and probably hard to navigate. Anyway, hope to have some good news to report next month..........

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Unknown said...


PENIS ENLARGEMENT, WEAK ERECTION FEEL LIKE A KING IN BED POWERFUL LOVER MAKER WITH COMPLETE CONTROL IN BED YOU CAN FUCK ANY WOMAN TO ORGASM AND IT,S EASY CONTACT drdadaspellhome@gmail.com.. WHATSAPP NUMBER +2348158568638

My name is frank harry from UK am here today to testify about my true life story many men all over the world today are suffering of small joystick (PENIS) and weak erection of the penis. I am 40 and have lived a very lonely life because of it. I can,t even look at women in the eye because of it. It has caused me great torment through-out my life. I had sex with a lot of girls but also had a lot of rejections and a lot of girls mock on my size. For me the thoughest part is not that girls mock on my size but when my wife packed out of the house and started seeing another man. Let’s me say that 75% of men & youth all over the world are really suffering of small joystick (PENIS) and weak erection of the penis. Some men today no longer enjoying their spouse any more, due to the size and weak erection of the penis, because of this act their ladies went out to have sex with those men that their penis is bigger still strong and stand erect. This act broke marriages or relationship. My condition have changed today after contacting DR.DADA the great herbalist, If you,re in the same condition please contact him via his email [DRDADASPELLHOME@GMAIL.COM] OR WHATSAPP +2348158568638
for more infor you can contact me on (frankharry4750@gmail.com)

Unknown said...


PENIS ENLARGEMENT, WEAK ERECTION FEEL LIKE A KING IN BED POWERFUL LOVER MAKER WITH COMPLETE CONTROL IN BED YOU CAN FUCK ANY WOMAN TO ORGASM AND IT,S EASY CONTACT drdadaspellhome@gmail.com.. WHATSAPP NUMBER +2348158568638

My name is frank harry from UK am here today to testify about my true life story many men all over the world today are suffering of small joystick (PENIS) and weak erection of the penis. I am 40 and have lived a very lonely life because of it. I can,t even look at women in the eye because of it. It has caused me great torment through-out my life. I had sex with a lot of girls but also had a lot of rejections and a lot of girls mock on my size. For me the thoughest part is not that girls mock on my size but when my wife packed out of the house and started seeing another man. Let’s me say that 75% of men & youth all over the world are really suffering of small joystick (PENIS) and weak erection of the penis. Some men today no longer enjoying their spouse any more, due to the size and weak erection of the penis, because of this act their ladies went out to have sex with those men that their penis is bigger still strong and stand erect. This act broke marriages or relationship. My condition have changed today after contacting DR.DADA the great herbalist, If you,re in the same condition please contact him via his email [DRDADASPELLHOME@GMAIL.COM] OR WHATSAPP +2348158568638
for more infor you can contact me on (frankharry4750@gmail.com)

Unknown said...


Hello viewers i am so happy to share this marvelous testimony of the great DR DADA who helped me to enlarge my penis and save my marriage with his herbal product within two weeks of using his herbal product when i almost lost my marriage because i was having a very small penis,my wife always complain that i cannot satisfy her in bed the way she want because my penis size was 3.5 inches long on erection and it was causing a lot problem between me and my wife also my wife wanted to divorce me because of the issue but my problem was solved when i was searching through the internet for a solution to my problem then i came across a testimony of one MR ZACK from france testifying on how DR DADA enlarged his penis from 2.5 inches to 10 inches with his herbal product .then i decided to give him a try by contacting him on his Email (drdadaspellhome7@gmail.com) and he replied also gave me some things to do,which i did and it was only 7 days of using his herbal product and my penis has increased t inches.now it is two weeks and my penis size is now 11.5 inches and i now last longer in bed more than before and my wife enjoy me more than before.i am so thankful to Dr DADA for what he did in my life. if you are having problem with your penis enlargement then you can contact him on his email drdadaspellhome@hotmail.com also you can call/whatsapp him +2348158568638 once again THANKS TO DR DADA




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