January 21, 2007
Gemma's Journal #4
So last week was Bump. This week is Chow!
Chow is very similar to Bump although instead of groups this is for runs. There is one limitation to Chow when compared to Bump is that instead of being able to Chow off anyone else on the table you can only Chow off the player to your left.
Back to the table set up!
Let’s imagine I was sitting in the West seat and I have this hand.
I would ideally like a 9 to finish off that run! North then discards the 9, however I can’t Chow that because, obviously, he’s to my right. Finally, South discards a 9 - Now’s my chance!
So, just as I did with Bump I say Chow! Show my tiles. Discard one tile and then pick up the 9. Play would then continue to my right, again just the same as Bump. Simple!
>Jenn’s Note: Place the tile you took perpendicular to the left of the two tiles it goes with and put the set to your right just like you did with bump! Here are some examples:
One last point to clarify is; what to do if the situation arises when one player declares Bump and another Chow. In this instance Bump is stronger and that player takes the tile. However if the third player declares Mahjong, then neither of the Chow or Bump players can take the tile.
To be honest it’s that simple! My entry for this week is already at an end!
I should fill this entry up a bit more perhaps… Ok you lot can advise me then we can ask Jenn or Garthe to give us their answers!
Which tile should I discard?
PS: If any Brits are reading- I hope you weathered the storms all right and your roofs and cars are still intact!
19 comments:
I would discard a 3 of caractere
Because there are more chance to pickup a 2 or 5 of caractere and a 5 or 7 of bamboo
Hey Gemma!
Great Post!!
I want to comment, but I want to see more peoples' opinions first. C'mon everyone!!!
id probably chuck the 2pin; even if the 4 set never materializes you could still use it as your pair if someone threw the red dragon, given that your other chow waits worked out well.
I'll side with Chafor on this one and throw the 3 of characters. Like he pointed out, the 2-5 wait is the two sided wait we're always looking for. We still have two possibilities for heads with the 44 of dots or the two red dragons. And there's a good chance I'll bump the Red Dragon if someone throws it and then drop the 2 of dots.
I say there's a good chance because being the mahjong nerd that I am, I am under obligation to point out the huge number of other factors which will way in on all the decisions here. For example if any of the tiles in the hand happen to be the lucky dragons, I'll be less likely to throw them (if the 3 of characters is the lucky dragon, I might even throw the 4). If it's late in the hand I might not be trying so hard to win and might just be throwing what I think are safe tiles. If it's late in the game, I'll be thinking about my score in relation to the other players and whether I need to go for it on this hand or if I can wait for another chance. And if it's my turn as dealer, I'll be more inclined to go for it also. For this reason, questions about what to throw will also often include: lucky dragon; east or south round and what place we are in it; how many turns everyone has had so far this hand; the current seat; current score. These are all factors which will more or less weigh in on your decision of what to throw.
Lets compare the two options:
A) "id probably chuck the 2pin"
You'll end up waiting on a double pair. Only 4 tiles left for you to hope on the road for a win (2 x 4pin + 2 x Red = 4)
B) "I would discard a 3 of caractere"
You'll end up waiting on a double sided Chow, waiting for 2 or 5 character. This leave you with 8 chances of furthering and completing your hand (4 x 2 Char + 4 x 5 Char = 8)
Conclusion : Everything else being equal, option A) promises only half what option B) gives you.
1. If I had this hand very very early (maybe deal or 2nd discard?!), I would choose to discard of the Chun (Red Dragon).
The reason is because the 244-Pin/Dots and 334-Man/Crak and the 4-Sou/Bam start to resemble "Sanshoku" of 234 (Three Similar Sequences). I would attempt to win with a concealed hand of
Riichi + Pinfu + Sanshoku + (Menzen Tsumo) = 4 Fan 30 Fu (Ron) or 5 fan (Tsumo).
2. If I had this hand somewhere in the middle of the hand , I would choose to discard 3-Man/Crak. Similar logic to Chafor, and I want to Pon/Bump the Chun.
3.If somebody is about to win with a nice hand (Mangan +)in the middle/late hand, I would screw my hand and try to play safety discards. In particularly if 1 or 2 of Chun have been discarded (by the dangerous person), then I would discard Chun again.
Yay! Ready to comment now!
Everyone has great opinions and while what Garthe says about the 'situational' differences may be true, let's assume that hands like this do not account for huge point differences, aren't early or late in the hand and there are no Drags (lucky dragons) involved.
So I will take the analysis that wonderful Walter did and go one step further.
Here's what I wrote when I first saw the hand:
Ok, so throwing 3-Grands is a great pick because it leaves you with a double-sided wait, like chafor said. I don't want to touch the 4-6-8-Bams because I'll probably mess it up somewhere.
Another thing to think about is that you want to bump the Red Dragon. In that case you want to leave more options to bump since that is easier than Chow, so 2-Dots might be Ok too. Then you will have the option of bumping 3-Grands OR 2-Dots. OR you can Chow the 2-5 of Grands (all of this is after bumping the Red Dragon of course).
Ok, so advantages to throwing 3-Grands, You can:
Bump Red Dragon (2)
Chow 3-Dots (4)
Chow 2-Grands (4)
Chow 5-Grands (4)
Chow 5-Bams (4)
Chow 7-Bams (4)
20 Chows, 2 Bumps, 22 total but Chows can only be taken from your left remember.
Advantages for throwing 2-Dots, You can:
Bump Red Dragon (2)
Bump 4-Dots (2)
Chow 2-Grands (4)
Bump 3-Grands (2)
Chow 5 Grands (4)
Chow 5-Bams (4)
Chow 7-Bams (4)
6 Bumps and 16 Chows. 22 Tiles but the opportunity to Bump has increased.
SO I think that the important thing here is that you are not quite finished with you hand yet, so throwing the 2 of dots does not bound you to a double-pair wait. You can still throw the 3-grand later giving you your glorious double-sided wait.
I am happy with the flexibility that the 2-dots gives me. The only real loss is if you pick the 3 of dots. If you throw the 3-grands, you lose the ability to use another 4-dots if you want to bump the Red Dragon and also lose the chance to use the 3-grand.
In my opinion, if you really want to bump the Red Dragon, the 2-dots does the least damage here... 3-3-4 is a much stronger combination than 2-4-4.
If you are not wanting to bump the Red Dragon because of point issues, I would go ahead and drop it now like John says and go for a Reach hand.
I really like these kinds of discussions :) I went to the bookstore to try to see if there was some paperback puzzle-type book with mahjong hands/suggestions to work through but apparently no such book is available to me. Hopefully I can get my fix here :)
My gut feeling was to throw away the 2 of dots.
Trust your gut, I say. Did you know that there are more nerve endings in your gut than in your brain? Well, that's what my gut tells me.
Hey again everyone!
Thank you so much for commenting; it's really great to see something I wrote get so many comments and answers! My gut feeling was the two of dots as well (my gut almost definately has more nerves than my brain!) but looking at everyone's answers I can see so many more options that I wouldn't have considered before. Thank you!
Well since that proved so popular I'll have to do it again and learn from all you clever people! So I hope you're all waiting on the edge of your seats for my next post!
Thanks again!
- "Trust your gut"
Yes, no matter what, you'll have to eventually trust your gut. But, this is not the right moment to telling this to yourself. You won't enhance your game with this mind set. Instead, you'll put an halt to any chance of making progress. Let me explain.
- There is theory.
- And there are real game situations.
In a discussion like this one, you may analyse each options at will. It's a perfect occasion to acquire judgement and learn new strategies.
However, in a real game, you'll have to rely entirely on what you already know, your experience, and well-learnt tactical reflexes : the proverbial "gut feelings".
In other words, your "gut feelings" are not as instinctive as you might think. They are acquired by practice. They are tactical reflexes you rehearsed before in your mind. You discuss and learn them now, when there is no pressure. Then, when it's time to play for real, at a blazingly fast pace, you'll be ready to find "in your gut" the right answer.
Wow, it IS great to see all the discussion. I feel like I have to weigh in again, especially so I can have a chance to show that I actually know how to spell "weigh" in this situation (I mistaked in my first post).
3 or 4 years ago, I'd say my "gut reaction" was indeed to throw the 2 of dots. It just feels like there are more possibilities. But after thinking about it, the 3 of characters is really the way to go. Even at the end of Jenn's analysis she says throwing the 2 of dots is only really disappointing if you get the 3 of dots. Well I say throwing the 3 of characters is only disappointing if you get the 3 of characters and there are only 2 more of them left while there are still all 4 of the 3 of dots remaining. And even getting one of the two remaining 4 of dots does not preclude you from bumping the Red dragon. Go ahead and bump, then discard the extra 4 dots; now the 4 dots is your head. There's also a good possibility that you'll be able to make a pair with 4 6 or 8 of Bamboos. By the way, why DOES everyone want to bump the Red Dragon so badly? (Lucky Dragon?) If you're worried about getting all your runs and not having any Hand Points yet, REACH, for the love of God. There are lots of options; throwing the 3 of Characters gives you the most.
Walter - Thank you for that advice! I will perserve with those words in mind. Certainly all this discussion is really opening my eyes to the strategy and theory in this game. It's really exciting!
I see what Garth means about throwing the three of characters now. (This was after sitting for half an hour on my bed with a Mahjong set looking at all the possibilities - my imagination really is that bad!) I'm just really happy to hear what everyone has to say about these kinds of questions so I can open my mind a bit more to this game.
- "By the way, why DOES everyone want to bump the Red Dragon so badly?"
There is a third option nobody talked about. Instead of a) discarding the Red Dragons early or b) keeping them to jump on the first Red Dragon that appears, one could also c) keep the pair and when someone discards a third Red Dragon... do nothing. Let it pass. And, later in the game, jump on the fourth one only if advantageous at that point.
For instance, let say Gemma(E) is playing at the same table as Chafor(S) , Garthe(W) and Jean-Francois(N). She has the hand we are discussing. For the time being, she utilises her two Reds as a pair. Later in the game, say, Chafor discards a Red Dragon. Gemma doesn't react. With her best poker face, she does absolutely nothing. A little bit later, she manages to assemble a ready hand. Maybe, something like this :
2-44Dot 234Char 789Char 456Bam RR
Now she has two options. Declare reach and throw the 4 Dot, for an inside wait on 2-4D. Or, even better, because less obvious and a lot more sneakier, to throw the 2 Dot and wait on the double pair 44D RR.
A lot of player, not knowing what to discard safely will get rid of Terminals, Winds and Dragons previously discarded. They'll think the fourth Red is so improbable it's safe, but it's a trap. (Reach + Lucky Dragon).
Or, if later Charfor makes a Reach before Gemma, she could throw her consecutively her Reds safely, knowing they are "furiten" (safe) with that player. (Safe defense; somebody else pays, not her)
Or, Gemma could make other players believe she wants to finish her hand fast with a All Simple yaku. Opening her hand with a Chow of 678B, discarding the 9B; then making Chow on everything Jean-Francois, on her left side, discards. Leaving for dessert a beautiful, unexpected Bump of Dragon. (Lucky Dragon disguised as All Simple)
Nice comments everyone!
I have to say though, I cannot agree with Garthe in this situation. I stand by my decision of the 2 of dots.
Getting another 4 of dots or another 3 of grands after throwing the 3 of grands would make me much mor disappointed than getting a 3 of dots to throw away later.
To be honest, I really don't like the 4-6-8 situation over there either and might even consider throwing the 8 to try and get a 3-4 double sided wait if I needed points in the hand (going for 3-colored straight).
I see what you guys are saying about the 3 of grands, but I can't do it. Throwing away a 4 of dots after bumping the Red Dragon would put me one step back again. Same with drawing another 3 of grands.
Let me be clear, I think both are fine moves, like i mentioned before, each has the exact same amount of remaining tiles that can help you.
Another thing that I didn't mention before is that lately I tend to like to keep as many pairs in my hand as I can if they are coming without breaking up my straights. A lot of times with this type of hand, after throwing the 3 of grands, you will then get an 8 of Bams, then a 9 of grands and then you will wish that you went for 7 pairs. This happens a lot to me anyway. You are still 3 tiles away from being ready for 7 pairs, but you are also 2 tiles away from being ready for a normal hand.
So I still think that throwing the 2 of dots gives me the most flexibility.
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