August 2, 2007
In Garthe's Hands #14
A little tired of reading about hands that you can only dream about? Well before we finish our tour of Fantasy Island (That would be the group of Limit Hands), how about if we return to a hand you'll see almost every other hand or so, Peace. There's a disturbing lack of it in the world today. But at least we can click our tiles together and make a little of it at the Mahjong table. It's second only to Reach and maybe Value tiles, at least in my statistics, so it's definitely something to think about working into your game.
To review, Peace (Pinfu in Japanese) is one of the simplest hands with the most complications. At its simplest, it's just a hand made up of 4 runs and a pair. Then there are the requirements. First remember that the head must not be value tiles. So the dragons will never be part of a Peace hand, and you also won't be able to use the Prevailing Wind tile or your current seat Wind. Next, your wait must be to complete a run and it must be open ended. That means that 12 waiting for the 3, or 57 waiting for the 6 would be unacceptable whereas 23 waiting for the 1 or 4 would be OK; also, a wait such as 5543 waiting for the 5 or 2 would be OK even though you might think of the 543 run as already being complete if another 5 came. In fact, 5554 waiting for the 3, 4 or 6 would also be OK for Peace as long as the tile that completed the hand was the 3 or 6 so it completes the final run. Similary 3456 waiting for the 3 or 6 would NOT be acceptable because the final tile is not completing a run; it's completing the head.
Why these inane complications for a concept so simple you may ask? Well Jenn just revealed the answer to this mystery to me last week! Peace is the only hand in Reach Mahjong worth 20 base points. Alright, the thing is, EVERY hand in this game is worth 20 base points, but every other hand will get some base points added on for triples, bad waits, or using value tiles in the head. Requiring the hand to have no value tiles, a good wait, and the fact that there are no triples means that there will be no extra base points (except of course for Self Draw. This does seem like a point that some nit picker some where would have said precludes Peace from being self-drawn. The Japanese are nothing if not rule adherers. Any comment on this exception Jenn?) So lest you think these are just arbitrary obfuscations designed to confuse the newbies, think again!! I don't doubt Mahjong's desire to confuse the newbies, but there is some reason to the madness.
On to the next subject, putting your Peace hand together. There are a only a million and one combinations that could become your next Peace hand, but let's look at a situation that has come up a lot recently in my hands and that I used to play differently. Let's say I'm one away from ready with a hand like this:
and I draw the 4 of grands; what should I do? I think my first inclination a few years ago I think was to throw the 7 so I now have the two open-ended waits. This is the best option for giving me the most possible tiles to make my hand ready. Any of the 3456 of Grands or the 2345 of Bamboos all make my hand ready. There are certainly situations where this would be the best way to go, for example close to the end of a hand where I just want to get my hand to ready but I'm not necessarily going for the win. The problem is that 16 of the 28 tiles that make me ready complete a run and force me to discard a tile from the unfinished run; I'll be waiting for a single tile to complete my head and that's NOT Peaceful! But there is another way. I can now switch horses in midstream and make the two 7 grands my head and still have the two open-ended waits. I do lose the possibility of being ready on 12 tiles, but in exchange, I have the guarantee that I will at least have Peace in my hand if I draw something that makes me ready. In this situation, it also gives me a better chance of getting Simples too if draw the 6 of dots and exchange it with the 9. This dilemma comes up surprisingly often, fastest-to-ready versus good-wait, and always makes for spirited arguments between me and Jenn.
Instead of scoring examples, let's look at some hands and see if we can get some people's opinions on what they might discard if they were in the given situations. There won't always be clearly right answers here so maybe add a little explanation for why you chose that tile to discard and then we can all call each other crazy appropriately.
Round: South-4
Seat: North
Lucky Dragon: 1-Bamboos
We have the most points. It's the 6th draw of the hand
Round: East-1
Seat: East
Lucky Dragon: 8-Grands
Our turn as dealer on the 5th draw of the hand
Round: South-3
Seat: South
Lucky Dragon: North-Wind
3000 points out of 1st place on the 12th draw of the hand
62 comments:
Everyone else calls that hand pinfu. Where on Earth did you dig up the name Peace?
Yes, it's Pinfu (No Point). But, if you use an online translator, you'll get Peace...
I prefer Pinfu.
1) At first, I may be tempted to go for "fastest-to-ready" and discard the 2-Bamboo. The dora compensates for our lost of Pinfu. But, since we are the leader and it's still early in the game, accumulating points seem more a priority. I suggest we go for a "better-wait" and discard the 3-Bamboo.
2) I don't know. All options seem equivalent, but since I rather like to remain oya, I would tend to go for "fastest-to-ready" and discard the 7-Grands.
3) It's getting late and so close to the leader, every little point counts. It becomes important to be at least tempai. Also, a Tanyao finish looks pretty good at this point. I would suggest discarding the 4-Dots.
The reason for all those crazy rules is historical. The ancestor variant, classical, was mainly based around those base points that we hate to calculate. Since the system was mostly centered around 3 of a kinds, a all sequence hand was considered a crap hand, hence "no points" and wasn't rewarded, but later on it got a fan for some reason and this was passed on. In many variants that dropped base point counting, it's just four sequences!
In regards to the "peace" discussion started by tina and walter:
Every Japanese site online I've seen calls this pattern "pinfu," and most mahjong pages of other rule-sets (including MCR) call it "all chows." The only exception is Ryan Morris's old brinkster site, but he now believes "all chows" is a better English term than what he had used. Personally, I think anything besides these two well-established terms is confusing.
The choice of calling this hand "peace" is unclear. As Walter notes, "Peace" is a literal translation of what the two characters mean if they're read in Japanese. ("Pinfu" is the Japanese transliteration of how the characters are read in chinese) Perhaps some people might think "peace" is easy to remember, but the same argument could be made for just about any made-up term.
There are no examples of any media I know of that uses the 'peace' terminology outside of reachmahjong.com. This includes all Japanese websites I've read as well as all books on the game. The same goes for many other terms on the site, including "grands," "Lost Hand," "Lucky Drag," "Value Tiles," and "bump."
I'm not sure how I feel about these 'new' terms. "Lost hand" is an interesting way of making furiten easy to understand, but the use of "bump" makes this site probably the only mahjong site on the internet that doesn't use the term pung. Perhaps some of these terms are worth adopting, but it concerns me that so many new players are assuming them to be the English standard.
Perhaps using these terms will attract more players who would otherwise be intimidated by foreign-sounding terms but in my opinion I don't think so. There are riichi mahjong clubs in at least four countries outside of Japan and none of the members there seem to have problems with Japanese terms. Two of these clubs are even cooperating together to make a Riichi Championship in Europe. This championship is poised to spark huge interest in Riichi all over Europe, creating a lot of riichi players who will no doubt be interested in reading the reachmahjong.com blog. What will happen then, when they are all confused by terminology they have never seen before?
To this site's credit, the glossary, http://reachmahjong.com/en/rules/jpn-glossary.html, is probably the most comprehensive for japanese mahjong on the net and a thorough reading of it will allow any player to reconcile their own terms with the site's. Unfortunately, I doubt most casual readers will take the time.
We're all in this together. Everyone who writes and reads this blog wants riichi mahjong to spread as far and as wide as possible. There is a potential problem with standardized terminology that could be nipped in the bud right now.
I think it would be a lot easier for everyone if we attempted to use the same terminology, sticking to terms that are already widely-used and only deviating if there is a very good reason.
Pinfu is actually not even a Japanese word, it is the Japanese version of the Chinese pronunciation for the word "Heiwa," meaning Peace or Harmony. Gem and I have found, teaching players that have never played Mahjong and no Chinese or Japanese backround, having an English term that players can relate to is easier for to remember than a word that is incorrect even to the language of origin and our students tend to prefer this method.
Yes, the Japanese sites use this, but this site is in English.
I am very against calling concealed sequences in Reach Mahjong "chows" because chows are sequences that have been called or "chowed" and the concealed factor makes a large difference in this game.
While the terms on our site are not set in stone, we are experimenting with many terms. There has been a serious lack of translation for terms in the Reach version of the game and a ton of terms that are not used in English, especially regarding strategy. That is something this site is working on and listening to all suggestions (so thank you everyone for your comments), but we will be striving to use English as much as possible to be sure and include people that want to learn the game and not necessarily a foreign language at the same time.
We always accept comments with the terms pon (in Japanese we do not say pung), chi, ron, tsumo, while also offereing English alternatives for those that wish to use them.
archon_wing :The reason for all those crazy rules is historical.
I'm not sure it is the only reason. The Japanese seem to have to sense of fairness or, if you like, to adhere to the Ying Yang principle of equilibrium. Every bad event produces its opposite elsewhere in the Universe. You can find a good aspect to every bad thing.
According to this principle, to compensate, extremely bad and unlucky hand are considered good and very lucky. Therefore, they are rewarded.
Juusanpotou (十三不塔) and nagashi mangan (流し満貫) are two good examples of that. You receive 5 yaku if 1) you draw a hand without any possibility of making any chi or 2) if at the end of the wall, you have discarded only ones, nines, winds and dragons.
The first character in Chinese can be interpreted to mean "flat" and that's what I think it means. (It is flat in the sense that you only have the base score). I am not sure what I think of All sequences, since in Reach Mahjong, it involves more than just that.
Jenn :I am very against calling concealed sequences in Reach Mahjong "chows" because chows are sequences that have been called or "chowed" and the concealed factor makes a large difference in this game.
I agree 110%.
There has been a serious lack of translation for terms in the Reach version of the game and a ton of terms that are not used in English, especially regarding strategy.
I have the same problem in French. There are no translations for many Mahjong concepts. I borrow as much I can words from Western card games terminology (poker, bridge, tarot,...). But, if a Japanese concept as no equivalent in French, I use the Japanese word.
I think you are doing a great job of finding easy to remember English equivalents. It's only a matter of letting them live for a while, to see which will be adopted and survive, and which will die because the original Japanese term feels more adequate. Only time will tell. For now, don't worry too much about that. Write whatever word you like.
Diversity is a good thing. It's the fuel of evolution.
re: terms in Benjamin's post:
"grands" - I have no idea which suit this would be intuitively. I've always learned them as dots, bamboos, characters, and honors/specials.
"Lost Hand" - Yes, it's a better descriptive name than the Japanese furiten, but since the hand isn't completely lost, it strikes me as a misnomer. Since there's no real equivalent in an English game, I've preferred NOT to just learn an English name for it ("Sacred Discard?"), and instead just use the term. After all, other than that furiten isn't English, it's no different from learning the "underknock" rule in gin, which has no real equivalent in other games.
"Lucky Drag" - I have no idea what this would mean, so it certainly isn't an intuitive name! If I had to guess, I'd say ippatsu?
"Value Tiles" - not a bad name, but is it really necessary to introduce a new term when you can just use the phrase "Dragons or good Winds"? If the goal is to simplify, don't use a new term, since you might as well use the Japanese yakuhai at that point.
"bump" - I've always used "call for" a tile to mean in general, or used the specific term as a verb: "I pon'ed the white dragons." In a collegiate setting, this sets up all sorts of fun possibilities for the trash-talking (like when I kan'ed your mom last night).
In general, I like the way I was taught: the Japenese term for everything was introduced, along with an English description. As the group of us played, the common usage became the Japanese term for more complicated things (pinfu, sanshoku, furiten, tenpai, ...) and the short English description for the simpler things (all pons, three hidden pons, 7 pairs, ...)
grrr, silly being able to delete but not edit your comments ... just had a couple thoughts to add on:
Jenn says: "I am very against calling concealed sequences in Reach Mahjong "chows" because chows are sequences that have been called or "chowed" and the concealed factor makes a large difference in this game."
I disagree with this. I'm against calling them chows, too, but only because they are chis, not chows. Other than sanankou, a hand itself is either open or closed, and which melds were called makes little difference, especially to a new player who's not going to be trying to read anyone else's hand. If you call a meld something different based on whether it is open or closed, you're only going to scare off new players. At our college club, we taught immediately that a run of three is a chi, three of a kind is a pon, and four of a kind is a kan. We don't even mention calling for tiles until significantly later, and to suddenly change terminology at that point would be difficult. It's easier to simply let "chi" mean any run of three, "open chi" mean specifically a called run, and "closed/concealed chi" mean specifically a hidden chi.
I'd like to tell you a couple things, first one:
Talking about terms is cool for sure, I like all the flaming going on here but please don't just simply come out from the blue and start talking about something off topic, there are other places to do it and this is definitely not the right one, this bothers who wants to read the answers to garthe's 3 situations... thanks.
second one:
some discussion on the hands,
1) Since I've the most points i don't need to gather many points, so I'd go for the cheapest but easiest hand to make the game finish asap. So I would discard the 2 bam.
2) Hard to tell, you can also try to go for a 3 identical runs hand by discarding 4 grands... I would keep it simple tho, so I'd discard 7 grands and wait on two open ended runs.
3) I'd discard 8 grands or 4 dots depending on what has been discarded by the others, it's 12th discard we have to be careful someone could already be tenpai
Gawdammm! So stoked to see everyone so full of ideas!!!
First, MY topic, what to throw away. Seems like I haven't made disciples of Andy and Walter yet with my idea of throwing away the run to save the head. Definitely interested to hear more opinions.
Example 1: My point here was to try to get us to want to go for Pinfu (oop, Peace, teeheehee). We're winning on the last hand, all we have to do is finish this hand quickly to win. If we discard the 2 of bamboos, more than half of the tiles that make us ready leave us with no hand points and make it very difficult to win. I like throwing the 3 of bamboos here to give us the certainty of having a hand point when we get to ready. Actually this also gives us the option of stealing the 6 of bamboos to simply go for Simples, ahem. Remember, we only need one hand point here for the win. Go for the kill!
Example 2: My favorite option here is still the 9 of Characters though there are certainly arguments for others. Maybe the best argument for taking the "fastest to ready" route would be the fact that Double run is already in the hand so it doesn't present the problem of getting to ready with no hand points. However, with the extra hand points discarding the 9, this is a potentially huge hand: Reach, Peace, Simples, Double run plus the possibility of drawing another Lucky Dragon and changing our head there! It's still early in the hand, I say go for the big points!!
Example 3: I'd like to drop the 8 of Grands here. We definitely want to save the 3 tile wait in bamboos and the Lucky Dragon is not an issue. This is where I thought I might trick anybody I might have converted with this column's theme. Dropping the 3 and 2 of dots would make the 44 our head but then we have the bad 68 wait in the Grands. Dropping the 8 actually leaves us two two-sided waits for heads (4566 Grands and 2344 Dots) and still leaves us open to Peace.
Any further thoughts?
OK, next topic, Terminology...
I played in a Poker tournament yesterday where the girl that took second had never played before. Another player at the final table had also never played before. One of the reasons I think that poker has become so popular recently is because the rules are so easy to learn, anyone can play almost immediately.
I dream of a day that the number of people playing Mahjong worldwide rivals that of Poker. (Reach of course) Actually I think Mahjong may be too complicated to ever get it to the point that it's as easy to learn as Poker, but I'd like to make it as simple as possible for new players to start enjoying the game as fast as possible.
I must admit, I resisted Jenn for a while and wanted to preserve many of the Japanese terms but have now come to appreciate the need for English. If we save "Pinfu", why not save the rest of the terms too and just ramrod them down all the newbies' throats? Because they'll be gone before we even get to "Iipeiko" let alone "Kyushukyuhai".
I can't tell you how happy I am to get comments and suggestions from everyone out there right now. But we're not selling Mahjong to you anymore, you're sold!! New players are starting from zero and most of the English speakers we've taught here seem to pick up terms faster when they're already in a language they know.
When millions of people in casinos all over the world are playing mahjong and me and Jenn are still the only people saying "Peace" and "Bump" I think we'll be happy to update our language. At the moment there are what, a few hundred non-Japanese Reach Mahjong Players around the world? Perhaps 1000 if we count everyone who's ever played a game? That number seems a little low to start calling any terms standard.
For the moment, I like the idea of giving all the Japanese terms English equivalents and if they evolve (or devolve) from there we can adapt from there too.
dbrnI like all the flaming going on here but please don't just simply come out from the blue and start talking about something off topic
First, it's not flaming. Everybody is calm, civil and respectful.
Second, if many readers feel the need to comment one particular aspect of Garthe's post, it's not off-topic. It's a matter that needs to be discussed.
We are touching here to main cultural differences. It's extremely important everybody give their view about this kind of matter, because the health of our newly formed international community depends on its coherence and solidarity.
For the first time, independent - and don't forget- self-taught Western Reach Mahjong players meet. It's normal we have to adjust one to each other, and it's natural we don't have the same insights about this foreign game.
Learning from each other is our main task. Don't muzzle debates for the sake of respecting some sense of arbitrary order. Redirect them to more proper forums.
That said, don't you think you are missing a good opportunity to invite readers to discuss further this issue on Yakitori Online?
Garthe : Example 3: I'd like to drop the 8 of Grands here.
The more I look, the more I think you are right. By dropping the 4-Dot, like I suggested, the 6-8 Grands become a problem and we are missing a pair we already had.
With your solution, we'll finish either with a double terminal wait (1-4 Dots) or a three way wait (2-5-8 Bamboo). Two excellent waits, with high odds.
archon_wing,
I agree with you on the all-sequences problem. I feel like the Peace Hand (I actually remember seeing it called a flat hand before) can be considered flat, or harmonious because there are no base points. It is definitely more than the WSOM or CO all-sequences (all-chows) hands.
Walter,
I have to apologize, I had mentioned to dbrn that I was a little disappointed that people were only debating about terminology and except for you and him, missing the work that Garthe put into this column. With that, I will give my answers.
1. With the 3-sided wait and the flexibility of being able to chow 6-bams, I would definitely discard 3-bams here. Unless the 6-9 bams were mostly all visible.
2. Depending on the board, I might discard the 8-grands first. It is the Lucky Dragon (dora), but if I really want to use it in my hand, then I would discard 7-grands first since I already have a Hand Point (han) with my Double-Run (i-pe-ko). I'm tempted to just get rid of the Lucky Dragon early, but I'm ok with the 9-grands discard too.
3. Once again, a 3-sided wait in the bams and open runs in both grands and dots. I'm definitely throwing the 8-grands here.
Regarding the 3 example hands:
1) I discard 1-bamboo. It's fairly early; get the dora out before it becomes too dangerous. I don't need it; I'd rather aim for pinfu and maybe tanyou (simples). Keep the pair and the flexible bamboo and character tiles; get rid of bamboo 1-3. Single wait is not good. Throwing dora also may intimidate the opponents.
2) I discard 9-character without much hesitation. I want to keep the pair and the double-ended chows. I have to discard two tiles from a chow; I definitely prefer to discard the 9 and 8 rather than one of the nice double-ended chows; that way I get both pinfu and simples and avoid a single wait. The yakus of pinfu and simples are more valuable than 1 dora tile.
3) I discard 8-character. I believe this is the shortest road to tenpai. That said, this late in the hand, my choice would be very much decided by the discard floor.
Terminology: I very much agree with Benjamin's comments. Introducing new terminlogy is confusing. I don't agree that it is harder for a new player to learn the term "All Chows" or "pinfu" than to learn "peace" which is indeed an English word, but with no realation to the hand in question. I don't think it is correct to say that there is no English terminology for riichi. I think Tom Sloper has done a great job of keeping track of mahjong terminology on his sloperama.com website - for all mahjong variants.
1) 3 bamboo. Leave the 2 bamboo as the pair, leaving you waiting on the 258 man, or 69 bamboo. Defensively, the 1 bamboo is safer to leave in your hand than the three.
2) 8 man. although this will break down the 789 run, thats going nowhere. Also, being the dora, you're going to want to get rid of that asap if you don't need it. Wait for 36 man and 25 bamboo. Whether to call reach or not depends on whether you need the points or not. I'd say not to being dealer as if you win you get another turn anyway.
3) 8 man. This should be obvious, although it leaves you weak defensively, but offensively it leaves you many options, as it allowas you to hedge your bets over whether to have the 6 man or 4 dot as the pair. That is if pinfu is what you have in mind.
>Walter
I dunno about getting rid of the 7 man in Q2; that leaves you without a pair, and without tanyao either...
Hi everyone!
I've been offline for the past week or so, but it seems I missed a good discussion.
I just want to add my feelings on the terminology issue.
I've been trying to teach a lot of people from a lot of different age ranges Mahjong and I've found the English terms very useful for this.
For those who are more determined to learn Mahjong and/or interested in Japanese/Chinese I've used the Japanese/Chinese terms.
However, a lot of English teachers that I've taught here have very little interest in other languages and I found that trying to use the native terminology just created confusion. Especially when remembering hands, which I think is quite a challenge in and of itself. These were people who weren't interested in playing hardcore but just wanted to casually play with their friends over a beer and some snacks. Thus, I used the English terminology and it worked a treat. I spent an afternoon teaching them the basics printed out a card with all the hands on and away they went.
When I tried teaching my parents, English definitely worked better too. The Chinese/Japanese sounds were meaningless to them and because they are so different to European languages they were difficult to remember. (My parents aren't young anymore!) However, with the English terms I think they could associate with game moves and hands a lot quicker.
Obviously using Chinese/Japanese terms is easy for some of us! I think though that if we want to appeal to the masses, interest a casual gamer or appeal to people of my parents age or older then English terms will most definitely help us proceed with our aim.
Just my thoughts!
Sorry to wade into the terminology issue, but I think it's an interesting issue that will continue to be problematic for a long time.
Teaching mahjong terms in Japanese/Chinese is certainly a problem for beginners who do not speak either Japanese (or Chinese). Yet, in the long run, should players from different sides of the language divide want to play with each other, there should be an agreed upon set of common terms, especially the calls, to reduce the confusion while playing. I guess this is the case for every game and sport that becomes international.
As for the translations of the hands, I had no problems understanding what the Peace hand was, since pinfu is the same as the Chinese pínghé (or pínghú, as it is pronounced usually).
With a Chinese background, I personally find including the Japanese terms (even in romaji) more helpful than the new English ones, as I can try to match the Sino-Japanese terms with the Chinese ones. This helps me learn riichi mahjong, using a sort of compare-and-contrast method.
On the other hand, I was very confused when reading new terms such as "Bump", "Hidden Drag(on)" etc.
Wow, 21 comments! What a lively discussion. (Maybe this really should get moved to the YO discussion boards...)
I agree that having English language terms is a good thing, and I think most people here do as well. Even though, like Garthe and Walter, I like using the Japanese terms personally that doesn't mean I think everyone should. In fact, I think everyone here thinks having English terms is good. (People seem to be disagreeing with the idea of "only having Japanese terms," but I dont think anyone actually said this.) After all, we're all here on an English-language website talking about a Japanese game in English.
Having English terms is good. It makes it easier for people to learn. Naturally you don't need an English term for everything (care to translate "Mahjong?") but I think we all agree this is a good thing.
I think where people disagree is *which* English-language terms to use and *why.*
Perhaps it would be nice to "preserve" the Japanese terminology but it was too late for that even before this site was created. English termology for Mahjong, as Tina says, is not a new idea. There are half a dozen websites on Japanese Mahjong in English and although some of their terms differ, most are the same. Moreover, there are dozens and dozens of English language websites on Mahjong in general, many of which use terms found in Reach. If most of them use one term and then a new site uses another, unless there's a good reason for the new term it will confuse people needlessly. (Tom Sloper keeps a list of terms used for all mahjong sites: http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq/mjfaq06.htm as well as a near-complete list of all mahjong sites on this internet http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq/mjfaq04.htm) Reachmahjong.com is one of the newest Mahjong sites on the web, Riichi or otherwise. The terms that are found on this site which Jenn and Garthe have, presumably, invented are likely the newest Riichi terms.
The first comment in this conversation asks why this hand is called 'peace' and I'm surprised no one has answered it. Like I said in my first post, this site is the only one on the internet afaik that uses the term 'peace hand.' I think the most common English term for this type of hand is 'all chows.' Never mind why it's not entirely accurate (even in MCR, where it's most often used, it's not 'accurate'), why is there a reason to use the specific term 'peace hand?' So far I've heard reasons not to use pinfu or 'all chows,' but no one, in any of these posts, has answered Tina's original question.
Jenn or Garthe, would you like to explain how you chose this term?
How about another example that's a bit clearer. Let's take a term that's also used in most other forms of Mahjong. Pung (Pon) and the hand "All Pungs" are found in just about every Mahjong variant, not just Riichi. The term "Pung" is dominant in not just websites but also *every* English language book on Mahjong. There may be only a thousand English-speaking people who play Reach, but I'd bet there's over ten-thousand English-speaking people who are familiar with the term "Pung." (and a few million more in China!) Perhaps there's no official standard for Mahjong terms, but this one term is used by several national mahjong organizations, is used and spoken in just about every Mahjong tournament regardless of rule-set and language (including American), and is common to nearly all English print media relating to Mahjong since the 1920s. To put it another way, the term's been around for about 100 years and is still widely used.
I think we can agree that pung/pon comes pretty close to standard. Given "pung's" near-universality as the English-language term, I would hope you have a very good reason for introducing the new term, "bump," which, again, I have only seen used on this site. I think everyone reading this column is curious to know this reason, so maybe you could share it.
The same goes for using "grands" as opposed to characters. "Characters" is universal to all English-language Mahjong organizations, or at least ones that have websites. Character tiles and honor tiles are easy to confuse, but that doesn't stop hundreds (if not thousands) of Mahjong enthusiasts in Europe and America. Seeing as there's already an English term, introducing the term 'grand' doesn't seem to add anything except confusion. Garthe, it even seemed to confuse you; you use both terms in your first comment on strategy.
So far we've only seen reasons why using English-terminology is good. Most people already agree with this. We haven't seen very many reasons as to why using "peace," "bump," or "grand" (etc.) are good. Maybe we can shift the discussion towards this? (If the strategy one if over, of course. If anyone's curious I agree with Garthe on all answers.)
The easiest explanation as to why to use a specific English-language term is precedent ("because that's what everyone else does.") This isn't always a good explanation but it tends to be the main one because there's generally a good reason why. I'd like to hear some reasons why introducing new terms is a good idea. I agree with steve, EP and Tina that many of reachmahjong.com's terms are confusing. ("Lucky Dragon" I think is the best example of this. Why invent a new term that contains "dragon" when you already have dragon tiles? I think it's fine to call this one dora but why not just 'bonus tile?')
We're all in this together. I said this in my first post and I think it's the most important thing I said and maybe the only. We all want Riichi Mahjong to spread. Most of us posting run clubs. We all teach our friends and families Mahjong and most of us, including myself, find it easier when we use terms in our audience's native language. We all understand the need for good terms people will use, regardless of whether or not they're into Mahjong as much as most of the posters here.
Right now there are many things happening to spread Riichi in the English-speaking world and all are poised to be successful. There's Jenn and Garthe and this site, the only one on the internet to discuss advanced strategy, there's the European community, poised to hold the first ever international Reach championship, and there are many other clubs in many different countries. We all need each other's help and it's much easier to talk to one another if we're using the same terms. Assuming we all succeed in spreading this great game, little differences that come up now have the potential to snowball. Not that difference's won't crop up every now and then, but I think it's a good idea to take care of this now while it's easy. Like EP says, this could get *very* complicated.
-----------
Wow, that was a lot. If I'm going to write this much in a comment I really ought to be updating my own blog. But first…little things!
--Before anyone points it out, yes pung is not exactly the same as pon but any English-native speaker will probably think they're the same
--archon_wing and walter discussion: I agree with Walter in that things tend to balance themselves out in Riichi, and probably better than in any other variant. Btw, juusanpotou is primarily a house rule, I don't know of any parlors or pro groups that recognize it. Nagashi mangan, in my experience, is half-recognized half-not. Perhaps a better example of balance is how Japanese has defense?
--In terms of whether or not "all chows" is a valid term. "All chows" is a good term in my opinion not because it's 'correct' but because its very easy to remember. The variant which is most famous for using this term is MCR and even in those rules it doesn't simply mean "all sequences." As in Riichi, a head of honor tiles negates it.
If you really wanted a 'valid' term why not just 'no minipoints' (no handpoints?). "All chows" seems a bit easier to me…
--Chows versus sequences. As steve says, why not just say 'closed chow' and 'open chow?' Seems simple enough.
As for "pinfu vs. Peace Hand," I'm with Tina and Walter and Benjamin.
As for Japanese terms vs. new English made-up terms, I disagree with Jenn. I take the point that new students who've not been exposed to other mahjong terms or books or variants have difficulty learning new Japanese terms. But IMO most folks interested in learning Japanese majan are Japanophiles. As such, they most likely crave learning anything and everything Japanese, including terms.
As for the term "chow," that's been the common English word for over 80 years, so that's the word I use. To use Jenn's own argument, new students already have enough difficulty learning a new game, without having to learn separate terms for an exposed chow versus a concealed chow. I also reject the notion of having separate terms for the verb "to chow" from the noun "a chow." When playing Japanese majan, of course, I say "chi" when chowing a chow. (~_^)
In response to Walter's mention of terms that have no English equivalent (thus use the Japanese term), I agree with that. I learned Japanese majan from someone who was never exposed to English mahjong terms. When I want to communicate with him, I have to use Japanese terms. I assume most students who learn Japanese majan are going to play against other folks - folks who didn't necessarily get taught the same made-up terms. It's important to know the Japanese terms when playing with Japanese folks, and it's important to know the standard English terms when talking with non-Japanese players.
I based my column today on this topic of terminology. It's at http://www.sloperama.com/mahjongg/column.htm
And my "mahjong rosetta stone" to help folks make sense of terms is at http://www.sloperama.com/mjfaq/mjfaq06.htm
Jaa, mata, mina-san!
Tom
I'm not sure how the reason for choosing the name "Peace" got overlooked. It was the first thing Walter posted in reply, it was noted in Benjamin's post and Jenn wrote in hers too: the Chinese characters which form the word Pinfu (which is neither a Chinese nor Japanese word) are used to make the word "Heiwa" in Japanese; "Heiwa" is translated as "Peace".
I'm not the Chinese expert so I can't take credit but in fact, the other terms under attack were chosen in much the same way as I understand it. "Grand" is short for a translation of "Man" or "Wan" which means "ten-thousand" or "Ten grand". "Bump" can be loosely translated as "Pon" and even "Chow" as an English word has a similar meaning to the original Chinese which means "Eat". So if the reason for objecting to these words is that there is no basis for them I guess we can at least put that argument to rest.
As for the argument that new terms are confusing, I am still of the opinion that they are only confusing for us. Obviously people learning the game for the first time would have no other terms to confuse them with, yes? I'm not sure who our prospective targets will be but at least one captive audience was a group of poker players we were hanging out with in Vegas. While learning a bit about Japan might have been a side interest, their real interest was in learning how to play the game, not learning a bunch of new vocabulary. I am certain that it sped along the process immensely to have English terms.
After watching Anchorman, I promised myself I would never ever use the phrase "agree to disagree" but it seems we are at an impasse. For the moment, some of us seem convinced that the Japanese terms are satisfactory, while others want to create English for them. Like I said before, when there are thousands of non-Japanese speaking Mahjong in Japanese, we will be only too happy to just go back to using the words we use to play the game every day. But until we get there, I'd like to stick to our original plan of at least offering English equivalents for all terms to make the game the most beginner friendly to people who may not have an interest in what is actually bastardized Chinese. Also, the Japanese terms are still all listed with all the English in the glossary for the Japanophiles who want to take it to that depth.
But wait, anyone still there?
Yup, people are still here and reading. I'm writing up a post on YO to direct the terminology discussion along with an anecdote and some of my own thoughts.
Link here : here.
Problem post below.
Exercises 1 and 2 are all about keeping your head on your shoulders.
So 1-sou (then 3-sou UNLESS the next useful tile is 4-sou, then chuck 78-sou)// 9-wan then 8-wan without hesitating. I tend to neglect pinfu but these are hands where you can't neglect it at all. It's a valuable hand and a solid path to victory in all cases. Getting tanyao is less important here but a nice option of Ex1. Ex2 could run a slight chance with men-tan-pin-zumo, and 11.5 (whether you finish with a 6-wan or not) tiles to get two dora from. Dealer hane-man from the start is a massive combo-breaker. A chance worth taking.
Ex3 is simple. 8-wan out leads to a one-count hand with 23 tiles to tenpai, all of them lead to pinfu, 19 of which add tanyao by chucking 4-pin in most cases after. South would get six more draws assuming a closed game (including haitei, assuming it stays closed). If no furiten issues arise, then I wouldn't bother declaring and hope for the best. Extra advantage would be that with a (2:30)2000 point win , you would be 1000 from winning (ron), 500 from (tsumo) with the last round to play. Then you deal. I don't see any downside. A quick hand ends the game when the dealer busts ahead in last round.
Unless you end up picking the 1-pin. To which I'd still not declare but be willing to kill the hand if the river looks bad (and haitei gets mixed up by a call).
(Sept. 14)
1) 3 Bamboo - we are in the early stages of the hand, assuming no one else has declared Riichi before us, we need to accumulate points.
2) 8 character - again we are in the early stages of the hand, so we need to maximize our long-term expectation (this means more yakus -> more points).
3) 4 dots - there are two seemingly close choices, 8 character and 4 dots. If we
discard 8 character, we have 23 outs (4x 3C, 2x 6C, 4x 1D, 2x 4D, 4x 2B, 3x 5B, 4x 8B).
If we discard 4 dots, we have 25 outs (4x 3C, 2x 6C, 4x 7C, 4x 8C, 4x 2B, 3x 5B, 4x 8B). Although 4 of the 25 outs, namely 7C causes us to lose pinfu as a yaku, we must win this hand. It's by far our best shot of winning first place. It's also getting late in the hand, so we need to choose the discard that maximizes our chances of winning.
For scenario 3, there are various other complications to consider. For example, what place are you in? How much danger do you perceive from other players? For instance, has one player already declared "Riichi"?
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In Finland, when we teach people to play riichi mahjong, we might use some Finnish names for the terms. But we also have to introduce the Japanese terms to them, because al l the foreigners are talking about mahjong with those terms. Actually, we try to make people familiar with the Japanese terms as soon as possible.
Now you have invented some new English terms, and we are wondering if we should start teaching people the terms in three different languages. After all, it would be good for our beginners to be able to learn mahjong from other sources than other Finnish players only, as our mahjong scene is so small.
Also, when I first found this site, I had no idea what these grands and drags were. Actually, I think that by making up your own terms, you are preventing the beginners to follow what is going on. Advanced players are already familiar with some of the strategies and such, so for them it is ok if you use a bit different terms, they can follow. But for beginners it takes some effort to comprehend the text like "if you pon the five of characters and discard the red dragon, you are waiting for 6 and 7 of bamboos for tan yao", just because all the concepts are still quite new to them. Now, if you also change the terms to something totally different, it might be just enough to turn the beginners away.
The use of the different terms is the only reason why I never mention this page, when beginners ask me where they could get some information about Japanese mahjong.
reachmahjong.blogspot.com is very informative. The article is very professionally written. I enjoy reading reachmahjong.blogspot.com every day.
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